Outlet mall expected to increase tax revenue
Outlet mall expected to increase city tax revenue

Comments Comment on this article43

By Bryan Dean
Published: May 7, 2008

Oklahoma City fired a shot Tuesday in what one councilman called "a war for retail tax dollars.”

Advertisement

The city will pay for nearly $7.9 million in incentives to lure a regional outlet mall north of Interstate 40 at Council Road.

The city council voted 7-2 to approve the incentive package for the mall, which is expected to generate about $3.9 million a year in sales tax revenues. Oklahoma City's budget for next year includes an expected $184 million from sales taxes.

The Horizon Group, an Illinois-based company, wants to open a 340,000 square foot outlet mall, with plans for an additional 75,000 square feet if it is successful.

Ward 4 Councilman Pete White said the city has to do what it can to lure more retailers and the sales tax they generate to offset the increasing cost of city services.

"I think we don't have a choice,” White said. "Retail is our life-blood in terms of how we support this city. I don't think we can ignore what I consider a war for retail tax dollars between us and surrounding communities.”

City officials said the mall would create 1,000 jobs. About half the sales tax the mall generates would be new to the local economy, generated by people traveling from outside the area to shop.

Some say policy needed first
Ward 3 Councilman Larry McAtee and Ward 7 Councilman Skip Kelly voted against the incentive package.

Both said they were uncomfortable passing it because the city has not established a policy for how and when it will offer incentives to lure retailers.

A committee has been working on the policy for several months, but it has not yet won council approval. Kelly also expressed concern about the long-term viability of an outlet mall.

Mayor Mick Cornett, who supported the incentives, said the mall is the type of development the city needs if it wants to maintain services supported by sales taxes.

The largest consumers of those dollars are the police and fire departments.

"We live in an era where we have got to support public safety,” Cornett said. "That's really what we are talking about here. We are looking at increasing our sales tax base to support police and fire.”


Toolbar sponsored by: David Stanley Ford
Bookmark and Share

Related Topics: Public Finance, Politics, Taxes, Sales Tax, Local Politics


Comments

Thank you for joining our conversations on NewsOK.com. We encourage your discussions but ask that you stay within the bounds of our terms and conditions. Please help us by reporting comments that violate these guidelines. To review our rules of engagement, go to Commenting and posting policy.

Editor's note: It is not our intent to offer comments on crime or fatality stories.

Leave a comment. Log in below or sign up (it's free).

   
I would hate to witness the culture shock of the citizens of this state if they got into a state that had a real high tax issue and had to deal with that....
paul, yukon - May 11, 2008 6:27 AM
Report as inappropriate
Sort of like the editors of this paper, they do editorials bemoaning our "high tax burden" (right after the Ford vote) and then support nearly every tax increase (or "extension" as they and the Mayor like to call them) and nearly every bond issue that comes though. People never cease to amaze.
Larry, Oklahoma City - May 10, 2008 9:28 PM
Report as inappropriate
No Larry..the "recirculating" of money applies to anything new in this town EXCEPT the NBA....I'm amazed at how she can make one stand concerning one area and go totally against it in all others....
paul, yukon - May 10, 2008 6:00 AM
Report as inappropriate
WOW, Jill wrote: "If not, we're only recirculating money that was going to be spent in OKC anyway." Does that mean she has FINALLY seen the light on the Sonics and the supposed economic impact they will have?
Larry, Oklahoma City - May 9, 2008 8:13 PM
Report as inappropriate
Actually Paul, then Senator Henry said the Lottery would bring in HALF a BILLION ($500,000,000) a year. Did you see today's (Friday) Editorial? (Lured details: City Bites...) They either don't read their own paper (mis-informed), or they just make stuff up (lie). They claim in the editorial that the sales tax from the outlet mall will be over $180 million!!
Larry, Oklahoma City - May 9, 2008 8:10 PM
Report as inappropriate
There is so much BS in this story it amazes me....from the quotes of Mayor Mick, to the fallacy that half the people shopping here would be from "out of the area"...didn't somebody say the lottery was going to produce 150 million a year toward education in this state as well?
paul, yukon - May 9, 2008 9:14 AM
Report as inappropriate
I see Chris, when challenged on his words, falls silent..imagine that...
paul, yukon - May 9, 2008 5:59 AM
Report as inappropriate
The trouble with outlet malls is that most of what is sold in the stores can be bought at other stores or online for less money. From a political perspective, how the City continues to make choices about who they do or do not support in mutual retail ventures could come back and bite them. How do you say "No" to the next request from a developer to build another shopping center?
Brer Rabbit, Briar Patch - May 8, 2008 4:45 PM
Report as inappropriate
Hey Chris..since you seem to be so knowledgeable on what we should be doing, perhaps you can tell us what YOU are doing..after all "leadership by example" works best...please enlighten us, hmmmm??
paul, yukon - May 8, 2008 4:38 PM
Report as inappropriate
I liken it more to getting stuck in a black hole--once you're here, you're stuck and you can never get out...
Kevin, Oklahoma City - May 8, 2008 12:59 PM
Report as inappropriate
Boy, if I would have known I could have made this much money here, I would have retired here years ago...living here is like being a mega millions winner every. single. day.
paul, yukon - May 8, 2008 11:12 AM
Report as inappropriate
Paul, $11.20 is about what 7-11 pays, and in Oklahoma, that qualifies as a GOOD job, maybe around what per capita income works out to...
Kevin, Oklahoma City - May 8, 2008 11:03 AM
Report as inappropriate
I'm extremely curious as to why the City offices aren't being flooded with either phone calls or letters asking what they're doing about bringing REAL business and REAL jobs to OKC and the surrounding area. I'm also curious why this isn't happening at the state level as well, and the BIG question is why isn't the city and state making news releases about their efforts in this area? Could it be there's nothing happening at either level and they have to settle for a few retail centers as their bringing business to Oklahoma model? I see the new meat packing plant is going on line soon, but the wage there is going to be paltry, the $23,300 yearly salary works out to $11.20/hour..hardly a living wage but I suppose it will make a nice 2nd job for a single person....why don't we hear about the State actually trying to recruit big business here??
paul, yukon - May 8, 2008 6:04 AM
Report as inappropriate
Dairy Queens used to be all over the metro...think there is 1 in Edmond and Midwest/Del City
Larry, Oklahoma City - May 8, 2008 1:29 AM
Report as inappropriate
First of all, the city needs to help the owners of crossroads mall compete with penn square, etc. Its a dying mall. If I remember correctly, the N.E mall in Hurst, Tx was in a similar position. Today that mall has been renovated to a upscale shopping destination. jill and gary made a point about Grapevine Mills. I've been there on many ocassions and I must admit that we need something like this in OKC. That center has everything from an ice skating rink, a ESPN Zone skating area (which is no longer called by that name), a gameworks arcade center, and a Virgin records store. Also a Rainforest Cafe is also located there as well. Personally, I wish OKC would have retail and other stores like Nordstroms, Neiman Marcus, Virgin Records, Central Market, and Whole Foods like those in the Dallas area. I would like to see either a Hard Rock Cafe or a Rainforest Cafe in bricktown. Heck, how about a Jack In The Box and a Dairy Queen restaurant. That would be a wonderful thing to have in this area.
robert, norman - May 7, 2008 8:24 PM
Report as inappropriate
Delmer, What about building casinos? Shoot, there's probably not a casino within, what, 10 miles of there? THAT would draw shoppers!
Kevin, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 5:55 PM
Report as inappropriate
Looks like one or two here approve of the Outlet Mall soooooo that's good enough to think about adding a rail line and perhaps run the canal out that way. What you think? I think the voters would go for a little more property tax and I'm sure that they have a little change left in their pocket. If we could only find someone to kick it off!
Delmer, choctaw - May 7, 2008 2:32 PM
Report as inappropriate
So who'se land will our tax dollars be doing improvements on?
Kevin, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 1:30 PM
Report as inappropriate
I'm from Blackwell originally and I remember when that outlet mall was in the works; everyone was so excited about the jobs it was going to bring. It's DEAD now. Took less than a decade for everything to be gone. The only thing that's left now is a "weepul" factory. Oh joy, the economy boom Blackwell was supposed to gain from that outlet mall ended up being a few dozen people making little fuzzy balls with sticky feet. That worked well.
Paula, Midwest City - May 7, 2008 12:28 PM
Report as inappropriate
If gas gets any higher no one will be able to shop at any mall period!
Lee, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 12:18 PM
Report as inappropriate
So they listed the name of the proposed developer in the story. Do you think it might be newsworthy to list the name of the seller of the property(if its not Humphries or his sons)?
Kevin, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 10:41 AM
Report as inappropriate
One more comment and I will leave this alone. I have more of a problem with them building two other huge shopping areas around Quail Springs Mall than I have this. This is more of a "niche" than a lot of shopping in one area.
Gary, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 10:41 AM
Report as inappropriate
One more comment and I will leave this alone. I have more of a problem with them building two other huge shopping areas around Quail Springs Mall than I have this. This is more of a "niche" than a lot of shopping in one area.
Gary, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 10:41 AM
Report as inappropriate
I don't think an outlet mall would hurt the rest of the shopping in OKC. I certainly don't think it would take away too much from Penn Square. Sure they would have some of the same stores, but the selection would be completely different and it would be much further away. It's not like they are building it two miles away so people are going to say, "Which one do you want to go to?" This would give people in Yukon, Mustang and El Reno a better place to shop without having to drive all the way to Expressway and Penn to do it. Honestly, I think it would make a lot more money because people out there would say "You wannna to the outlet mall for a little while?" instead of "You want to go to Penn Square? No, it's too far." I personally go to the Grapevine mall whenever I go to Dallas and hopefully this will keep a lot more money in state (and would save me on gas as well.) JMHO
Gary, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 10:36 AM
Report as inappropriate
This works if we get people from around the state shopping here who wouldn't have previously or who are going to other outlet malls in Texas preferentially to shop. I don't know if that's likely to happen or not. I was in the Grapevine mall recently and the parking lot and the stores were full. In fact, we had trouble finding a space. I have no idea if that will happen here, but if it does, it will be a good thing. If not, we're only recirculating money that was going to be spent in OKC anyway.
Jill, www.okcthunderfans.com - May 7, 2008 9:55 AM
Report as inappropriate
No, they complained because they didn't want the competition, you might wish to check the City Council minutes and site plan info at City Hall for the Academy locations........Also, I thought you just wanted to know it wasn't owned by Humphries.....it wasn't......got positive things to do with my day....see ya.
Randy, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 9:34 AM
Report as inappropriate
Randy, might want to check your facts. Academy complained about BassPro because they didn't get any help. Just because you drop that in your comment, doesn't mean it's fact. You say the land is privately owned, by whom.
Rob, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 9:30 AM
Report as inappropriate
The land was privately owned, not by Humphries, and most of the incentives are for drainage problems that would have to be fixed for ANYTHING to be developed on the land. Academy DID get some incentive to move here. Improvements to Broadway and drainage issues were solved using city money.....The Outlet market has changed dramatically since the days of Stroud, Gainesville and Blackwell. Look at the outlet malls in Allen, Texas and Grapevine, Texas and then tell me it wouldn't work at the proposed site. By the way, those outlet malls received city money for their development and I have known many OKC folks who also shop at those places while traveling through the Dallas area.
I am sure glad we don't check with posters on these sites before trying anything. NOTHING would happen.
Randy, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 9:20 AM
Report as inappropriate
Delmer, choctaw - May 7, 2008 9:08 AM
Report as inappropriate
It's a blind sided adventure. Anyone think the tax revenues expected to be generated by the Outlet Mall to be new money? I expect most of it will come from diluted tax revenues from other local businesses in the surrounding area!
Delmer, choctaw - May 7, 2008 9:08 AM
Report as inappropriate
Very good con argument , guys. I am glad you have done some research and come up with some very good thought on this and are willing to share them with some of us who aren't as aware. The point of KH owning the land just stupifies me, and I yet again find myself appalled at our over-botoxed mayor.
Cristalle, Edmond - May 7, 2008 8:53 AM
Report as inappropriate
I agree Kevin. Who owns the land and who owned it in the last 10 years? That would be interesting to know.
Rob, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 8:29 AM
Report as inappropriate
Doesn't it strike anybody as odd that former mayor Humphries just happens to own much of the land the city makes deals on?
Kevin, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 8:24 AM
Report as inappropriate
OK Mick, here we go again. Just like Basspro, Academy didn't get any tax dollars to locate here and it is a better place to shop for good prices than BassMick. What is with all of these borrow and spend Republicans. Oh, I forgot, they're just like George W. and his oil buddies. It's not like these are going to be brand new tax dollars. They will just be shifted from Penn Square or Quail Springs. Do the math.
Rob, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 8:15 AM
Report as inappropriate
I just want to know how much Slick Mick's buddy Kirk Humphries is making off this deal...
Kevin, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 8:10 AM
Report as inappropriate
I am not sure of the life expectancy of an outlet mall. The Gainesville outlet mall is declining rapidly, the outlet mall near Blackwell is gone, the one near Stroud was almost gone when the tornado took it out and we had an outlet mall at Council and NW Exprsssway but is has since become a retail lease center. Seems there would be a better place to spend incentive dollars than another mall, and especially an outlet mall, that may or may not last long enough for us to recoup the incentive dollars we're spending.
Richard, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 8:06 AM
Report as inappropriate
David, bringing an NBA expansion team may certainly help do what you suggest. However, do you think it is right to go and "steal" another city's team?
Larry, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 7:03 AM
Report as inappropriate
Let me ask you once again David...just how many places does a person need to shop anyway? The entire area is practically one big shopping experience anyway. Is an outlet mall the answer? I think not. Perhaps we should be focusing on those little unimportant things like education and quality of life instead?? And no, quality of life is not "one more strip mall" for your shopping pleasure....----------------------------------Is culture in your mind defined by the amount of shopping outlets we have here??
paul, yukon - May 7, 2008 6:58 AM
Report as inappropriate
Chris, believe it or not you are making the point for me. What you said is true, one does often have to spend money to make money. But you have to make sure you are not spending more than you are going to make! Our Mayor and City Manager want to "break even" with the Sonics (instead of coming out ahead like we did with the Hornets). Did you know our Mayor and City Council voted UNANIMOUSLY to give away the Ford naming rights to the millionaire and billionaire owners of the team? We aren't talking chump change here. If handled correctly, we could have paid for the improvements with the naming rights alone. Memphis, a slightly smaller TV market got $90 million in naming rights for their arena, in a 20 year deal. OKC should be able to get at least that amount. That works out to be over $4 million a year our city leaders literally gave away (to someone who doesn't even own the building). You mentioned the luring thing again. You don't have to lure a business (like the Sonics) that have already told you months before they are coming. I personally don't care if the NBA comes or not. But it is NOT governments responsibility to make sure its citizens are ENTERTAINED. The NBA is a purely entertainment business whose owners can easily afford all of the "incentives" they are being given. If all of the things they are promising (jobs, economic impact etc) were true, they would be more than willing to pay the costs themselves (and would rightly be entitled to keep the rewards). However, they would rather take none of the risks AND keep the rewards. While a savvy move on their part (why not get someone else to pay for it if you can?), the taxpayers keep getting the shaft. If the NBA is so great, why don't YOU move to a city that has it? But be prepared to have to move when they threaten to leave if they don't get what they want (ask Seattle).
Larry, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 6:58 AM
Report as inappropriate
I think what Paul and Larry is not cluing in on is that it takes more than just a few tax incentives to lure big businesses into Oklahoma. In order for companies to seriously consider relocating to Okc, they want to have the culture and asthetics that fit their lifestyle. Our GM plant was one of the more efficient ones but they shut it down and left open the Texas plant. Why? Texas, even with higher taxes, offered a better location to GM.

We desperately need higher end jobs, but it will take more than we have now to lure those types of jobs into the city. Bringing the Sonics and adding retail are steps in the right direction.
David, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 6:39 AM
Report as inappropriate
Hey Chris...just how many places does a person need to shop anyway? Seems like the focus of the city and state would be for a higher paying business to come in rather than take up more space with shopping areas and poor paying jobs, but thats just thinking in a manner consistent with wanting real growth and an economy boost rather than a token of "growth" and "advancement"...plus doing something like this is easier than striving to bring something like a big scale production business to town....
paul, yukon - May 7, 2008 6:26 AM
Report as inappropriate
You need to pick up and move to a city that doesn't want to have anything going on, period. All you do is bitch and moan everytime the city tries lure things here that we've never had. You have to spend money to make money. The way you constantly complain about the NBA trying to come here, people might mistake you for someone from Seattle.
chris, estherville - May 7, 2008 2:38 AM
Report as inappropriate
Here we go again, "luring" something that has already said its coming...also, didn't the previous article show the location of the mall as being on the SOUTH side of I-40? This article says it's NORTH. Lets see, lets spend $7.9 in incentives to get back $3.9 in sales tax (only half of which is "new" money, so we are only really getting back $1.95 million for the "investment"). If the mall goes belly-up, do they pay the City back? Could this be why the City Budget is going to be so tight? Yet another example from the Mayor and City Manager, where we are "breaking even"??? 193.8 YEARS to "break even" on the Ford improvements and 210 YEARS to "break even" on the Practice Facility. The State isn't any better, give $60 million in "rebates" but only keep $11 million. I swear, sure looks like the Enron geniuses are working for the State and City now. And more fear tactics by the Mayor (if we don't approve this you won't have any police or fire)...much like the threats he made that if we didn't pass the Ford tax we wouldn't get an NBA team (even though the formal relocation had been filed months before)...or the County with if we don't buy the GM plant we are going to lose Tinker....all male bovine excrement (IMO)
Larry, Oklahoma City - May 7, 2008 1:00 AM
Report as inappropriate