Does anybody remember the Oklahoma Journal, published in Midwest City by W. P. Atkinson? It was started to try to provide balance in the metro -- started in the early 60s, shut down in the late 70s. A noble experiment, just couldn't overcome the Gaylord $$$.

Interesting posts here. I'm thinking I need to go to the History Center and look at some back issues of the Oklahoman/Oklahoma City Times. ---------- C, PV--my dad was a publisher of an Oklahoma newspaper for 26 years, and I literally grew up in the news office. Other than that, when I referred to the Oklahoman being used in a negative light in Journalism Ethics classes, that was from personal experience when I was in college. ------- If I had time, I'd spend lots of it in the archives. It truly shows how we have matured as a state.

Exactly, JH, deep red creek...exactly! Please keep sharing your opinion....I feel you strive for objectivity and offer valuable insight and good common sense. Thanks. ________ (p.s. the example I offered about the winning and losing streaks was something I heard just this morning on TV . ...it was really pretty insignificant, but I thought it demonstrated one way that words, etc., can influence and/or set a tone of sorts. It is so important we each keep our skills of observation keen as we listen and watch and read....there are those who do seek to influence us and the way we think. Whether such an influence is innocent or something more, it seems important that we are alert to the possibility.)

C,PV...isn't amazing how the print media can use certain verbs, adverbs, and adjectives to influence how they feel about an article or oral inflections of voices on radio and television to influence what the lister/viewer might feel..hopefully must folks recognize this and take it for what it is....As for Rep. Cargill, he reminds me of that falling star on a clear Oklahoma night. First appearing so bright and illuminating and then a big flizzle and gone. Over the short term, what he did saved not only himself but the Republican party a lot of grief. As for the long term, time only will tell. If you believe what you read, he has a large sum of money with which to do something...At times it is hard to keep my personal opinions out of certain issues, but term limits are producing legislators who rely on lobbyist and administrative staff to write most of the bills that will later become law. Those folks who like the lime light and jump into the vat of political politics must know that every misstep they make will make headline news..hopefully, common sense will prevail and they remember who employed them...have a good week and be safe...

JH, I am particularly interested in your opinion of the story, as well. And...for that matter, anything else you might care to discuss. ______I also want to clarify something I said in my earlier response so that those who read it can fully understand what I intended. When I said that I had not detected any particular bias by the DOK aimed at any particular party, I meant it. However, judging from the standpoint of editorial opinion, I am aware that the newspaper holds a conservative political philosophy. I do not find the publication's willingness to take a stand in this regard to be unethical. I do not feel editorial comments and opinions violate a newspaper's responsibility. Whether or not one agrees with a stated opinion, the right of editorial comment would seem to be an important component of a publication's overall service to the public. Obviously, news reporting should not be the equivalent of editorial opinion. ____________Still, it is very easy to affect opinion by those who do the reporting. It may not be intentional. There are times it might be. For example: "The Cowgirls are trying to overcome a two game losing streak." "The Sooners are coming off a three game winning streak." (Now, I am NOT trying to start a OU/OSU bedlam discussion here.) That example is simply offered as an example of a very subtle way wording can be offered (...whether intentional or inadvertent...) which could possibly influence or help form an opinion in those who hear it or read it.

Oh...JH... ..please, your take on former Speaker Cargill?

Thank you, JH, Deep Red Creek. Thanks for your insight and intellect! I feel that your input was an important addition to the dialogue Deann and I were having.___________ I understood Watts had "baggage." However, his vanishing from such lofty heights seemed too sudden, too abrupt and too complete. _________ Judging from the good insight you have offered, can we safely assume that you are engaged in observation and even a measure of scrutiny when it comes to "political players" and the dynamics involved (including behind the scene)?__________ Please continue to offer your insight. Again, thank you.

C,PV..yes on the J.C Watts departure..I really believe the DOK measured the amount of baggage Mr. Watts was carrying and saw that he had reached the apex of his political career; hence, their pushing/backing him for higher offices stopped. Folks were using names like Governor, U.S. Senator and even Vice President in front of his name, then it stopped. As for, David Boren, he has a wealth of knowledge and a circle of peers, friends and people of power that some world leaders do not have. In my humble opinion, I see him as an asset that few states can place on the public forum. Thanks for yours and Deann's insight and intellect.

JH, Deep Red Creek...I always believed that the DOK backed all of the particular individuals you have mentioned and was aware that those individuals were of different political parties. I had not detected any particular bias as to political parties on the part of the DOK. Deann states that she has. _______You have presented a plausible explanation which might explain both opinions ( perhaps contingent upon just when Deann and/or I were observing a particular DOK treatment of particular individuals). What you have said makes sense to me. _______It did not occur to me that David Boren's power had weakened prior to his return to OK. Do you feel that J.C.Watts momentum had waned .........that possibly the DOK had a role in his departure from the political arena, as well?

C,PV/Deann...when Dem's like Carl Albert and Robert S. Kerr held positions of power at the Fed. level, the DOK did not place them under a microscope...they knew both were needed for the state to prosper...the same with Dewey Bartlett and Henry Bellmon....but when David Boren failed to vote for the first Gulf War and spoke against the appointment of Clarence Thomas as SCJ..the DOK said it was time for a change and David Boren returned to Oklahoma....my point, the DOK then and today will stand behing those that can help them and the state but once they have lost that usefulness will ship them down the river with the rest of us....

All of us tax paying folks are notified several times by our county treasures taxes are due and when they are due by. If we choose not to pay them on time, then a penalty is due. That in itself is not against the law, but failing to file a state income tax form is.

Deann...I inadvertently left out something important. When I pointed out the possible unreliability of the impressions a person holds in long term memory, I was not speaking specifically of you and your memory and your impressions. I was speaking in general terms. I hope that came through! _______Most of us can accept such testimony without any problem if we believe we can trust the integrity of the "witness." If we feel the "witness" is dependable and reputable, we can accept his/her thesis and are usually willing to do that. __________ Deann, I don't doubt your word on this issue. I really did accept your observation of the Oklahoman's past and present policies. Once again, I thank you for your information.

Deann...I did it again...too long, but it felt as if we were having a conversation. Sorry.

Deann...I had no idea your dad was a reporter...or in that business, as the case might have been. However, I agree that he acted with great propriety and should be applauded for his high personal and professional standards and integrity. I know you must be very proud of him! (The basis of your pride not limited to this one instance, of course!) ________As far as the Oklahoman is concerned, I cannot make any determination in regard to reporting from decades past. For one thing, I believe to do that accurately and above board would require more than simply depending on my own memory or the memory of someone else. It would take real investigation and scrutiny and even that...especially given the passage of time...might be difficult to assess properly or even fully reconstruct. _________In other words, for me or for anyone to rely simply on one's own or another person's memory or depend on one's impression and, then, using that basis, make assumptions and/or accusations in regard to the "character" of said news reporting would not be reliable. I feel any conclusion, thereof, would be subjective and based on subjective, or at the very least, vague resources. Impressions cannot ascertain or ensure objectivity. So..yes, we do have a different perspective on that point. _______However, I believe that you have confidence in your memory and in the impressions formed and maintained within it. I haven't formed any like memories. I have no wish to argue about whether or no yours are accurate. Still, since you have been willing to try to keep this conversation sound, I offer those points. Frankly, I am delighted to hear that you find the Oklahoman to be a source of balanced news. Often, I read or hear negative comments about the paper and, yet, I have formed no negative opinions. I appreciate your sharing your observation for I respect your opinion. _________Question: Did you mean to say the proliferation of news sources? If so...I am going to take you back to the State of the Union message when you explained that your preferred to read the address rather than watch it. =) Okay, I do like to get my news from a newspaper, but like most Americans, I watch the news! Local news, state and national news ...of course, we can receive the news and do without editorializing. I suppose that I am depending on my memory here just as you depend on yours in regard to the Oklahoman. I still recall Dan Rather reporting the news. It seemed to me that ...just as is common in conversing with friends, family, co-workers, or neighbors...it seemed to me that Dan Rather's tone, voice inflection and wording, etc., often gave obvious clues and possible insight into his opinion. Not that every news story invited that kind of opportunity or response...but some did. Or at least I thought so. Now..we have spent a lot of time on this...but it's been kind of fun to think a little deeper than dusting the surface. We have no real conclusion, I guess. I don't think we are as apart on this as you do...but then, I know that only you know can really know what you think. Me,too. I hope I was able to somehow express what I meant in accurately or at least close to that. _____Oh, if you did intend to say "profligation of news"...I admit I am in a quandary as to exactly what you meant. Yet, I believe I got your drift. _________Thanks again for your heads up in regard to the Oklahoman. I really am glad to know that you feel they are doing a good job in reporting the news. Thanks.

C, PV. We do have a different perspective. I believe the profligation of news sources has made it more difficult to editorialize inside a news story. And, the point I was trying to make is that the "news" side of the Oklahoman in much better today than it was 20 years ago. The fact that they are reporting news that they would have buried or ignored as late as the 1980s is proof they are becoming a more responsible news organization. Cudos to the Oklahoman! - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I will give you an example of responsible reporting. Many, many years ago, a man in my hometown drove a large, overweight trunk onto the highway bridge outside of town. It caused the bridge to collapse. My dad reported the collapse, and the fact that the truck's weight was reported by the authorities to be the cause. He did not report the name of the driver, due to the fact that the man was a husband and father in our small community. He didn't want to embarrass the family. However, the man still came to our home and drew a gun on my father and threatened his life. He was angry that the story was published! The point is, had my father not reported the story at all, that would have been irresponsible journalism. Had he identified the driver, that would have not accomplished anything but causing harm to the man's reputation and his family. My father chose the high road, and because he did, that family was not harmed. (BTW, this would not have been libel, because it was true.) The difference in this and in the case of the representatives is that they are public officials. When they run for the job, they accept that they will be scrutinized. However, when the Oklahoman reported continuously about the problems that David Walters' son was facing, that was irresponsible. That teenaged boy (who committed suicide) did not sign on as an elected official. It would have been much more responsible for the paper to leave him alone and not report his problems.

Deann...I believe that "editorializing" has become too easy and too commonplace and is the norm in broadcast journalism. That's a whole different ballgame. That can make it more difficult for the public to separate news from opinion. Moreover, more and more people depend on broadcast news for their information. _______It seems to me that we are on the same page in regard to news and editorials, but I'm not certain. If not, feel free to let me know. Take care..

Deann, I realize that in general news reporting such as in the story of former Speaker Cargill, a newspaper should be totally objective. Who. What. When. Where. How. Those should be the components of a news story. ________When I made the statement you have quoted, I was not actually giving consideration or credence to a probability of actual news stories being reported with bias by the Daily Oklahoman...not past or present. In fact, I am so conscious of the journalistic responsibility, I did not even internalize that might be what you were saying. Maybe you were saying that. I didn't think so. It was not my concept. If it was your concept, then my response was not the correct one to make. I was referring to editorial opinion, Deann. Editorials are fair game for the editor/publisher to offer his/her own opinion. ______ Please do know and understand that I internalized your statement in regard to editorial writing ONLY. My statement reflects the concept of editorials only. As I am sure you know, but in case someone reading doesn't, editorial opinion is different than news reporting and is representative of individual opinion or position. That is ethical. The former (slanted news reporting) is not. That's why after editorial opinion there is also likely to be a disclaimer stating that it is the opinion of said writer and should not be interpreted to be an opinion issued by the newspaper, etc. ( I know that is not the exact wording..but maybe it will be close enough to trigger in others the existence of that type of comment.) ________Thank you for bringing that statement to the front burner and giving me opportunity to clarify it. I would not want to leave that false impression. I didn't realize it might be taken in that way. Now, thanks to your help, hopefully, it has been clarified.

C, PV. This is what news organinzations are NOT supposed to do when reporting news: "In regard to the Oklahoman's treatment of Democrats versus Republicans, I suppose if the philosophy of one party seems to be more in tune with the ideology of an editor/publisher, it would be quite normal for said newspaper to align with those whose ideology best matched its own." It is also what I believe is more difficult to do in these times of numerous, varied news sources for people to listen to, read, or watch. THANK GOODNESS!

Oh, ah, Deann...Should I assume that your post of today @ 10:40 a.m. was meant for me? =) LOL _______well, if so, I'm wondering...may I be excused to get a drink of water. If not, what time does the bell ring? =) Deann, I'm just kidding...it was just too tempting to resist! LOL ______Have a great weekend! Truly! =) I appreciate you.

C, PV. Thanks for your thoughts. I was trying to state that historically the Oklahoman was not objective. That is considered fact in the journalistic realm. In the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s up to very recently, the paper was used in Journalistic Ethics classes as an example of "how not to do it." I am happy to say that they are much better now. I would have reported the same information had it been leaning as far left as it did right. Mr. E.K. Gaylord was not to emulated. Again, I am happy the paper has assumed a more moderate role. It is supposed to be that way. I have no problem with editorializing, ON the Op/Ed page. I have a HUGE problem with allowing the editor's opinion to influence the news portion of the paper. That is the essence of "Yellow Journalism" and should be decried at every opportunity. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I'm pleased with the improvements that have been made in the Oklahoman in the last few years. I hope they continue.

I want to apologize to you and others for the length of my reply, Deann. I was trying to be brief...I did not realize I had taken so much space. Obviously, brevity is not my strong suit.

Thank you, Deann. I appreciated your sharing your viewpoint. I respect your opinion. I hope to keep this brief. __________ Okay...here is what I am thinking: I did not intend to imply that I thought the Oklahoman had an ulterior motive. It is easy to assume something, but that is not the same as knowing something. I am not assuming anything in this instance. ______I agree with you ....in that if and when former Speaker Cargill held state employees to a certain standard, he should be accountable in that regard, as well. Paying one's taxes timely is an attribute of a good citizen and is his/her responsibility. I agree that our elected representatives should accept and live up to that responsibility.___________In regard to the Oklahoman's treatment of Democrats versus Republicans, I suppose if the philosophy of one party seems to be more in tune with the ideology of an editor/publisher, it would be quite normal for said newspaper to align with those whose ideology best matched its own. However, there could be the possibility of other scenarios. I believe that for many long years, there were very few Republicans elected to public office in the state of Oklahoma. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that perhaps the newspaper embraced what its editor/publisher considered to be a responsibility…---that responsibility being “ riding herd” on those who did hold public office. In times past, most of those individuals were likely to be Democrats. In more recent years....with the recent tendency of Democrats to lean more toward socialism (Unfortunately, the national Democratic Party leadership delivers that message. At least at the national level, it is no longer the Democratic Party of “your grandfather.” That’s if figurative speech...not saying your grandfather was actually a Democrat. Mine was. =) ), Republicans have enjoyed political success in Oklahoma. With the emergence of the Republican Party into the state political mix and now in a position power, a local/state newspaper with such a philosophy would surely feel the same responsibility in holding the line in regard to those of that party. ___________However, I believe I am understanding you to say that the newspaper has an agenda...against Democrats. Maybe so. Maybe it is because of the present leaning of that party nationally. Or maybe it always did. However, the fact that you have now observed a more middle ground in paper’s approach….i.e, .that it now seems to be riding herd on the Republican Party, too, could actually mean that the newspaper does seek to serve with at least some degree of objectivity, in that it will investigate the leaders of both parties. ________As for the "lynch mob" mindset...unfortunately, it is human nature. People have a tendency to accept negative information about another....and all to willingly "mentally" convict another without the benefit of complete and pertinent information or investigation or evidence. Unfortunately, innuendo goes a long way. I doubt that will ever change unless people are willing to examine themselves before casting blame...for example, "complaining of the splinter in someone else's eye before making sure they have removed the log from their own eye" (not an exact quote..only intended to illustrate my meaning). For example, before former Speaker Cargill mandated no late payment of taxes as a rule for state employees, he should have made sure his own were paid on time every time. ___________Having said all this, I still believe that William offered some thoughts which were worth some consideration. You did, too.

slander--
A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - IMHO, it is more difficult to libel someone and get away with it today, BECAUSE of the many different media sources. People have more than one or two or three sources to check -- so news sources are more cautious about making outrageous statements. If I read something that appears "hinky" in a paper, I can go online and check other sources. If they all dispute what I read; I'm going to give less credence to that source in the future. So, I think it is more difficult for a news source to get away with libel today than in the past.

C, PV. I don't know how long you have lived in Oklahoma and read the Oklahoman -- but the newspaper has (since its establishment by Edward King Gaylord) never met a Republican it didn't like. For many, many, many years there was no way that they would ever publish anything the least bit derogatory about any Republican in office. The fact that they are now more middle-of-the-road is refreshing to many Oklahomans who decried the fact that the only way to read a balanced paper published in the state was to read the Tulsa paper. So, having said that, I have to believe that if the Oklahoman is now reporting about the failures of our Republican leaders, it is because they are blatant. The "lynch mob" . . . "sic 'em" mindset appears to most moderate Oklahomans to be gone from the Oklahoman -- it died when Edward L. Gaylord gave up control of the paper. THANK GOODNESS. If you want to read character assination at its best, go back to old issues of the Oklahoman and read what they did to the David Walters family. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - As for Cargill's "procrastination" (breaking of the law), I remind you that he was very vocal that state employees should be fired for the same exact transgression. Why shouldn't he be held to the same standard?

William,Tulsa...You have pointed out some significant points which merit consideration. _____I cannot know if the Oklahoman story was intended to discredit Cargill in order to impact his move to do away with abstracting requirements. I cannot know if the Oklahoman was seeking to establish Cargill as a marked man for any reason. ________I do know that there is a "lynch mob"..."sic 'em" ....mindset which can be successfully used by the media. That mindset often blinds us and put a halt to our ability to use common sense. Many of us have become quite vulnerable to succumbing to propaganda and to the acceptance of character assassinations without seeking objectivity or balance ......in other words, we are quick to judge and most happy to do it! "Lynch mob"..."sic 'em" ,,,mindsets were never a good thing. Today that mindset may be even more dangerous as technology employs lightening quick distribution of a message..be it factual or be it suggestive. And..we the people still enjoy a delicious morsel of gossip and seem to find great sport in tearing others down. _________I agree with you that Cargill's procrastination is not the equivalent of wrong doing or corruption.

If I overpay my electric bill or the plumber's tab and fail to ask for a refund for 2 years, these people are happy as clams. This is what house Speaker Lance Cargill did with his state income tax. If you fail to pay property taxes in Oklahoma on time, which require substantial record keeping and depreciation calculations, you are subject to interest and penalties that would make most creditors ecstatic. Ditto for Cargill's property taxes and Oklahoma tax agencies, who make out like bandits in this situation. When the Oklahoman published their expose of speaker Cargill, there was absolutely no effort to put his late, but hardly self serving tax matters in perspective.

However, there are people who are thrilled to see Cargill go. Surely, this would include owners of abstract companies a la former Senator Gene Stipe (an actual crook), who regularly skewer Oklahoma homeowners for thousands of dollars every time they refinance their home. Cargill's idea to eliminate the abstracting cost for real estate would make for some nasty enemies. Trial lawyers and big government types are likely not fond of Cargill's ideas on reforming worker's compensation laws or eliminating the sales tax on groceries.

Reader, Eastern Oklahoma....It seems important to remember that today's technology can produce "results" which may appear to have authenticity, but are false and without integrity. That post is a mystery to me, but I'll wait for the Oklahoman, etc., to bring forth that kind of allegation. I don't believe internet sources are held accountable for slander and libel as a publication such as the Oklahoman is. (Not talking the Star,etc., here! =)

EWWWWEEEWWW-Lance Cargill sex tapes??? for real, Michael?

Impeach the bum.

he should prepare for his next job. just practice saying, "would you like fries with that"?

Yes, he did make the right decision. But I would also like to see all those who received straw funds from Stipe & Phipps take their "bow"out. Calling Mr. Macmahon, Mr. Edmondson, etc. They just slapped each others wrists and went on.

JoJo-I disagree. To not hold yourself to the same standard as you hold other state employees IS official corruption. It means you think you are better than other employees. A crummy bookkeeper? Give ma a break! He knew what he wasn't doing, and he chose to keep doing it because he thought he was better than the average Oklahoman. That stinks!

The misdeeds publicized here are not of official corruption. The speaker was a crummy bookkeeper, like so many other Oklahomans. A member of the legislature should be held to a higher standard, but he wasn't using his position for advantage. He apparently was treated by the county as others are, paying fines for late payment. He wasn't taking excess campaign contributions, no bribery was involved, no jobs for relatives of supporters, etc. He did the right thing by resigning,yes,to avoid being a distraction for the party's agenda. Though the agenda "should be about ideas," we need men and women of a responsible nature to forward those ideas.

To impeach or not to impeach that is the question.

Aren't pretty much all of them business owners in some form? Maybe it's just me, but "I didn't know", or "I forgot" kind of doesn't cut it.

How ironic that he tried to blame the media. I think that ups his sleeze factor by 100. Fact is that he ignored the tax man, an act that he was very vocal in decrying in "state employees." Isn't that what he is? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Thank goodness the media isn't bowing to his attempt to blame them! Did anybody catch KWTV-9 this morning? They stood up and said, "Not our fault, Cargill. You did this to yourself!"

I'm just really confused. Stipe, Fisher, Macmahon, Vanmeter, Reinhart, Cargill and crew... If those are the ones who got caught, is there anyone in charge whose not a sleeze?

What impressed me about this affair is that the Oklahoman has been covering this in depth. It was not too long ago that Republican scandals, if reported at all, were buried on the back page long after they had become old news.

It easier to creapy and slimy when your not at the top, ie a politition.

Umm.....yeah. Not too many options for NOT resigning. Why do all the corrupt creeps end up at our state capitol?

Yes.

He resigned not because of the tax issue but because of the "sex tapes" that have found their way to the public domain. Search his name on YouTube and listen to the voice mails that he would rather have remained private. ANOTHER republican hypocrite!

It seems to be the same thing everytime. A high profile person resigns once he is caught doing something wrong or unethical. Lance Cargill should have never been in that position and I feel that an investigation needs to be done to see if any criminal charges should be filed.

I am very disappointed in Lance Cagill. Yes, he made the right decision. He will very lucky to keep his seat. The air must get very thin when you get up to the state captial, because for some reason, logical thinking goes out the window.

Yes, he did - we should always hold our elected officials to a high level, and/or at least to the same level as our average citizens.

Too little, too late! Resign your seat, you hypocrite! You want to fire state employees for the same infraction, well hold yourself to the same standard.