Oklahoma City officials contend that the Seattle SuperSonics must relocate by contract to Oklahoma City "regardless of who owns the Team.”
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Officials also reveal in a legal letter that Oklahoma City is prepared to sue in federal court to force the relocation.
The nine-page letter was sent Thursday to an attorney for the former owners of the Sonics. The former owners on April 22 asked a federal judge in Seattle to overturn the 2006 sale of the NBA team. They want the Sonics sold "to an honest buyer who desires to keep the Sonics in Seattle.”
The former owners are led by Howard Schultz, the chief executive officer of Starbucks, a popular coffee chain.
Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said Friday, "We felt it was important that they understood our position. It was meant for informational purposes only. How it's received, I can't predict, but that was the purpose.”
The former owners' attorney, Richard Yarmuth of Seattle, declined to comment Friday.
The Oklahoma-based owners of the Sonics want to play in Oklahoma City, starting next season. They face two hurdles: the former owners' lawsuit and a separate lawsuit filed by the city of Seattle.
Seattle is suing to force the team to play two more seasons at Seattle's KeyArena because of a lease there. A trial on Seattle's lawsuit is set to start June 16 in Seattle.
In the legal letter, Oklahoma City's attorney wrote that the city already has "valid and enforceable agreements with the Team requiring it relocate to Oklahoma City at the end of the current lease with the City of Seattle.”
The move could be as soon as this summer if the judge in Seattle lets the team out of the lease there early. The agreement with Oklahoma City requires the team to play in Oklahoma City for 15 years.
Oklahoma City Assistant Municipal Counselor Wiley L. Williams wrote the team must relocate even if the former owners succeed in their lawsuit to overturn the sale. He wrote Oklahoma City is committed "to honor, uphold and to enforce the OKC NBA Agreements, as needed.”
"There is an expectation by City leadership and citizens that the owners of the Team, whomever they may be, will honor all of the Team's contractual obligations with the City — including the contractual obligation to relocate to Oklahoma City and to play home games at the Ford Center for the duration of the term of the lease,” the Oklahoma City assistant municipal counselor wrote.
How much is at stake?
Williams wrote Oklahoma City will spend as much as $120 million on projects to upgrade the Ford Center and build a practice facility. He wrote Oklahoma City would be obligated to sue on behalf of its taxpayers to force the team to relocate. He wrote the city also could seek damages.
He wrote, "Damages ... will be substantial.”
Any lawsuit by Oklahoma City would be filed in federal court in Oklahoma City.
The former owners want the sale overturned because they contend the Oklahoma-based buyers lied to them. The former owners contend the new owners never intended to keep the team in Seattle, as promised. Schultz has said he doesn't want the team back, just for it to be sold to a buyer committed to keeping it in Seattle.
Sonics Chairman Clay Bennett has said he made good-faith efforts and spent millions of dollars to keep the team in Washington. "We tried the best we knew how to try,” he said April 18.
Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz added a "breach of contract" claim Tuesday to his lawsuit against Sonics owner Clay Bennett — arguing Bennett failed to honor the terms of his purchase agreement when he proposed a $500 million arena plan he knew was doomed to fail.
In an amended complaint filed in federal court, Schultz's attorneys argued that Bennett's Oklahoma City-based partnership breached its contract with Schultz by failing to use "good faith best efforts" for a full 12 months to get an arena deal in the Seattle area.
That requirement was set out in the purchase and sale agreement when Bennett's group bought the Sonics and Storm in 2006 for $350 million.
Instead of proposing a reasonable arena plan, Schultz's latest filing claims Bennett pushed a $500 million Renton arena that would have required "unprecedented amounts in public subsidies" with lease terms Bennett "knew would be unacceptable" to state lawmakers.
In the Washington State RCW's this is the "negligent misrepresentation" and "fraudulent inducement"
das, I actually heard that members of the Hornets actually wanted to stay, and some of them started to look for homes in this area...and most of them didn't want to return to a city where they were not supported. _____________________________________________________________________ paul...27.9% for 9th grade and below is very alarming to me. Obviously home life is a category that has a play in their mentality, but I wonder what other category has failed the youth in having them believe suicide is an answer. Very sad!
I was wrong Vino, the actual number of youths who have made a suicide pact in Oklahoma is 27.9 %, and it's 9th grade and below. The source is the Oklahoma department of mental health...
Hey Vino...I'd be cautious about claiming Seattle is the suicide capital of the "world". There are numerous reports that 25% of Oklahoma youth (Younger than 10th grade) have made suicide pacts...Maybe the kids here in this state see how dismal it is more than the adults do....
D, Anadarko wrote: "Whatever happened to waiting for an expansion team?" Good question. Unfortunately Bennett and the Mayor got tired of waiting. Bennett tried to buy controlling interest in the Hornets (with the hopes of keeping them here permanently) but Shinn wouldn't sell (besides there was that pesky little thing called a lease that Stern insisted the Hornets keep, yet supported Bennett in his move to break the lease in Seattle). When Shinn wouldn't sell controlling interest, Bennett went and bought a team he could control. The Mayor has said he wanted to avoid any perception that we were trying to take another city's team all along (his statements saying that the City wasn't "actively" in "formal" talks, or "actively pursuing" any team etc) yet making it no secret that we wanted an NBA team (if he wasn't talking about an expansion team, that only leaves one option, taking another city's team). He could have told Bennett that he didn't want to have any part of the Sonics relocating, but he went along with it all the way. The voters could have said no to the "theft" The Legislature and the Governor could have said no to the "theft" too.
Seattle = Sucide capital of the world... Moving to OKC, looks good.... Honestly, I liked Seattle when I have visited there, but to trash Oklahoma City is funny. Oklahoma City has it's advantages and don't forget the Hornets went back to the cespool that has become New Orleans. Players go where the money is and OKC fans show up to games. Something Seattle has not done for years. (note to Seattle, Schultz has said he does not want the team back! Wonder why.....
I had no opportunity to vote for the proposal beings that I don't live in the Oklahoma County. Actually, I am currently out of state. I don't know that I would have voted for the tax, and color me ignorant...I didn't realize it had to do with the Sonics. The last thing that I remember was when the Okies were having a ball with the Hornets. Was hoping something would work out that way, but whatcha gonna do? They deserved to have their team back. Whatever happened to waiting for an expansion team?
D wrote: "...why direct that anger toward the citizenry of oklahoma? i know that i had not one thing to do with this basketball deal, and i am sure that not one person posting on here from oklahoma did either." I agree with most of your post but unfortunately anyone that voted for the Ford tax is an accessory to the "theft". The owners had made their intentions to move the team clear from the start and had not just threatened to move but had formally filed for relocation several weeks before the Ford tax was proposed. So even though the Ford was built for an expansion team (no taking another city's team involved), by the time of the Ford tax vote, that was clear what was going to happen. Everyone (Mayor, Council, Chamber and those that voted for it couldn't be patient any more) they wanted a team so bad they didn't care what it cost, how long it is going to cost us (esp if we want to keep the team, the rest of our lives) or how they got the team. They try to rationalize and justify it (guess it helps them sleep at night). Their actions have painted all of OKC has accessories to the "theft" (that is the way the vote is portrayed, "over whelming public support"). But that was a very small percentage of the OKC population (around 8.5%)
D; I think loyalty when out in the 80's. Except of course for the minor leagues...they seem to have the loyalty and the willing to play just to play like the big leagues did many years ago.
i have been watching all these posts for a week or so. why in the world the whole of oklahoma is being blamed for; in some's opinion, the hijacking of another state's professional basketball team? why are there folks on here from washington? and why direct that anger toward the citizenry of oklahoma? i know that i had not one thing to do with this basketball deal, and i am sure that not one person posting on here from oklahoma did either. the one thing i am very sure of is this. professional sports have become more and more and more..."just a business". in my opinion this actually started with the players...those players willing to jump ship for just one more dollar (or million) on the contract. no room for loyalty. as far as i am concerned they are all just a bunch of spoiled millionaires
i have been watching all these posts for a week or so. why in the world the whole of oklahoma is being blamed for; in some's opinion, the hijacking of another state's professional basketball team? why are there folks on here from washington? and why direct that anger toward the citizenry of oklahoma? i know that i had not one thing to do with this basketball deal, and i am sure that not one person posting on here from oklahoma did either. the one thing i am very sure of is this. professional sports have become more and more and more..."just a business". in my opinion this actually started with the players...those players willing to jump ship for just one more dollar (or million) on the contract. no room for loyalty. as far as i am concerned they are all just a bunch of spoiled millionaires
Flying colors: Despite economy, Tinker bond passes (Thu May 15, 2008)
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Even though the title might indicate they were trying to spin the election as passing with "flying colors, the editorial didn't do that (barely based with 53% of the vote...roughly 3% of the County population).
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"Tuesday was the fourth election in seven months that involved an INCREASE in either the property tax or the sales tax."
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FINALLY, they admit the the bond issues and Ford tax were tax INCREASES (instead of an "extension" or "it won't raise taxes")...it's about time! Thank You!!
Hello Larry, Education Week 's tenth annual report card on state education systems ranked Oklahoma among the top 10 states in each of their four major reform categories. More than 100 educational indicators are monitored by Education Week's researchers, who this year also analyzed state policy efforts over the past decade. Oklahoma outperformed the national average on each of the “ 2006 Policy Implementation” indicators. (Jan. 2006) (www.edweek.org). Also, The Education Commission of the States Web site includes a massive database tracking each state's implementation of the federal No Child Left Behind Act . In July 2004, Oklahoma ranked No. 1 in the U.S. with more of the 40 major requirements met than any other state. Since then, the ECS has revised their database tracking system but Oklahoma remains in the top five nationally. (Jan. 2006) (www.ecs.org). I cannot find anything for 07 or 08. If you find anything, please let me know. Thanks!
Hi Mardy, do you have a link that shows the school stuff (where we rank so high)...to hear the OEA and Sandy Garrett tell it we are in horrible position (usually due to lack of teacher pay of course)?
Larry, that is what I came up with as well. 5 years and we'll be where Seattle is right now. If we are going to do this, we need to do it right...in my opinion. As far as the schools go, we are in the top 10 of every major category..however, I'll be the first one to say that there is room for improvement...like pay for the teachers is on the top of my list. I personally would like to see a team here, as it will provide a huge boost...but only if it is done right.
Paul, first, thanks for the sites! It is weird that one day we'll be great, and then the next our economy is tanked. Kind-a wonder if this is all political just to be presented at our next election. I did notice the site you referenced for how bad the State "could" be was forecasting, and did not use the same economic indicators that show a different picture. Again, probably political posturing. I did like the Pew's comments...a website provided by Bill. Have you guys read that one?
Darrell, Jill cannot refute any of the facts posted because all she knows is the political spiel tossed out by the Chamber and the city offices and Mayor Mick. Besides that, it's true that the city did withhold information, is still withholding information, and will continue to do so, and they surely don't plan on changing their strategy, lest the population of this city becomes truly informed and speaks out against lining the pockets of billionaires and former govt employees. Facts don't mean much in this city or state, what counts here is deception and smoke and mirrors, and if you've been following the whole NBA in Oklahoma fiasco, you'll see that is indeed the case. Rather than resort to something as foolish as facts to refute a statement from somebody like me or Larry, they'll either grow completely silent, try to change the subject, or resort to playing down the situation with useless statements, such as 007 has made, or Jill with her love it or leave it scenario....
"Unfortunately (for you) it hasn't worked in this case and you are giving outsiders a negative stereotypical thought of Okies."...Oh boy...I'm sure she lies awake at night worrying about that...This anonymous newspaper forum is a pretty big deal
hi Mardy (sorry about the typo in the post below). We do have a high number of National Board Certified teachers (personally think ALL teachers should have to be this, with the appropriate compensation of course) yet are we getting the results of that in the classroom? After spending how many millions on MAPS for Kids (one of the primary benefits touted would be vastly improved test scores), test scores did go up but as a chart featured on the front of one of the MAPS for Kids quarterly update/newsletter showed (this is from memory so my numbers may be off some), did show an increase of 2% to 6%. Sounds good, we are making progress, but if you looked closely at the chart (which most people don't) you noticed that most of the kids in the grades tested were STILL failing! Now most people pick the chart or the graph that best supports their position. If this was the one, OKC schools are in worse shape than we imagined. Know the numbers for freshmen later graduating are also amazingly low. The state has made strides in making graduation requirements more stringent, but I'm not sure if we have seen the results most were expecting yet. Did you realize (according to articles on this website, citing the U.S. Census Bureau, Oklahoma takes in $8,000 per student in the public schools, but only spends around $7,000? Thats $1,000 times the 641,000 or $641 MILLION EVERY YEAR that is unaccounted for! That extra $1,000 per student would go a long way towards changing our ranking from the bottom of the barrel. Of course, just spending more money doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be getting a better product. That article mentioned we were at the bottom, got a quote from Sand Garrett (of course bemoaning the state per student spending ranking) but ignoring the $641 million discrepancy. That amount is well above Gov Henry's promises for the Lottery ($500 million a year, a number that hasn't even come close to half of what he promised).
Mardy..according to this site, Oklahoma was recession proof LAST week, this week they're heading for the cellar. Check out todays headlines, I've found 3 articles listed today that all mention the "weakening" or "sluggish" or "downturning" Oklahoma economy.....
Mardy..something else to consider: Using the city estimates of return from having the Team here, and dividing the dollar amount spent on upgrading the Ford this time around, and given that they'll be crying for a new arena every 15 years or less, this city will be on "Ford Center # 13" before the current one is paid off....sounds like a sweet deal to the taxpayers of OKC to me.....
Mandy, heres some more info...according to the NBA Database link that can be found on this site, currently the Ford is rught in the middle of the pack in seating capacity (out of 30 NBA arenas). AFTER the improvements we will be losing about 300 seats, doesn't sound like a lot, but it will drop us from #14 to #21 (and we are doing it to ourselves). The Mayor has said he expects the support for a permanent team to be "astronomical". Since the Hornets (a temporary team and numerous sell-outs and for the 2 years they were here, average attendance exceeded 18,000 (less than a 1,000 from capacity) it is obvious we have all ready out-grown the Ford, yet we aren't doing anything to increase seating capacity. Thats why (esp if the team is successful here and there really isn't any reason they wouldn't be, considering our brief history with the Hornets), the owners will be demanding a new arena in about 5 years after the upgrades are complete. So in my opinion we are just flushing $100 million down the improved Ford toilets. The Mayor and Bennett both said that the Ford was a temporary solution and would have to be replaced.
Paul, seriously, you want to attack our school system? FACT..go here: http://sde.state.ok.us/agen/bio.html . Oklahoma had the 9th highest number of National Board Certified teachers, and The Manhattan Institute documented Oklahoma 's graduation and college-readiness rates as higher than the national average in every category; The state ranked 9th nationally. There are tons of other stats on this page. Unfortunately, it also puts us at 50 for Teacher pay...which is changing...hopefully. Again, you state lots of "facts", but where do you get your facts?
Paul, I would like to know where you are getting all your facts...please provide proof of your statements. One fact is that Oklahoma is one of the most recession proof cities in the Nation. http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/29/cities-recession-places-forbeslife-cx_jz_0429realestate.html . I know our State has its problems, but we are improving on them due to individuals making a difference. If you don't like it, run for office and change it.
chris, I've stated no argument about Key Arena's capacity...only the fact of its size in comparison to other NBA arena's. I wasn't refering to any sales. However, thanks for explaining this to me. My main effort is to understand the whole picture. Again, thanks.
No one has credibility on a forum... Not even myself. That is why I stopped speculating. I don't want to look like an ass if I end up wrong, and I don't want to know I had to resort to a secondhand guess which may end up right, thus I just got lucky. No one here knows squat, despite who they know, in whatever field those people may be in. All I see is a lot of speculation due in part to the fear of what could happen. Either OKC will lose out, or Seattle will lose out, but this point is for sure. No one will know anything as fact, until June 16th and 6 days later.
Mardy wrote: "...it almost sounds like we'll be inheriting a Seattle problem?" You're starting to see it now, good for you. Congratulations! Now, if Philip, Jill, Michael and Roger would open their eyes....
Jill: you just might want to retract your "lack of smog" statement. While OKC may have lower smog, it's very rapidly catching up. here's a source:...http://www.jdsutter.com/portfolio/Air%20quality%20becoming%20unhealthy.htm
One of Denvers big problems is it's elevation, and they are "smoggier" but OKC isn't far behind....thought you might like to know....
Thank you Jill for completely ignoring my post and worrying less about the thoughts and FACTS of one poster and focusing on his feelings about this area instead. You prove my point in many ways, ignoring the issues at hand and trying to shift gears and draw attention away. Unfortunately (for you) it hasn't worked in this case and you are giving outsiders a negative stereotypical thought of Okies.
Jill, your proselike response to Paul is so "Okie from Muskogee" of you...especially the love it or leave it sentiment. Everyone should be proud of where they live, but Paul seems to be grounded in reality and not the latest Chamber of Commerce brochure. My two bits.
paul, if just once you said something positive about Oklahoma City, I wouldn't mind you posting negatives. I don't mind you being anti-basketball or Ford Center improvements. I understand that people can have differing opinions. But, my definition of a troll is someone who delights in negativity, enjoys demeaning a place or others and never has constructive criticism or positive suggestions for change. I have yet to see anything you've written that makes me rethink my designation of you. I've lived other places and I choose this one. There are great schools here, if you choose to find them, and for those that aren't, it is our job as citizens to work to improve them. That's why I'm so proud of the High School of Science and Math. I'm unbelievably proud of the fact that the University of Oklahoma has so many national merit scholars, of our charter schools and many others. We've passed MAPS for Kids to improve the infrastructure of our city schools. This city is a work in progress. If our roads aren't perfect, personally I've not noticed, because the traffic here is so much better than other cities in which I've lived. I love the absence of smog, compared with Denver, where I used to live. I love the sunshine here. I'm so proud of what our city leaders are trying to accomplish with our MAPS programs and the plans for Core to Shore. I love the lakes in Oklahoma, the people here and how proud many people are to be from here. I could live elsewhere, but I choose this place. In fact, I chose it over Seattle and Denver and have only been sorry during the NBA season, since I love basketball. If people aren't happy here, they have the right to leave, and if they don't leave it is their job as responsible citizens to work to change those things they think need changing.
Thank you 007...every time you post something like this, you enforce my credibility with people who don't live around here and take away something from yourself....make that 5005....
Hey Jill, just a thought or two:.. I have to admit that I am not looking for your respect nor your kindness. While I applaud your verbage in your posts, I have to ask you to consider the following: You mentioned a person who "denigrates" this city and what it does. I agree, if indeed that person spoke badly and made up false statements about said city. However, I have not made up any false statements. FACT: The proposed renovations to the Ford, which were supposed to be released either before or right after the vote have still not been released, true or false? FACT: NO MENTION of tax breaks was made before the vote for public knowledge, true or false? FACT: NO DISCLOSURE about the "naming rights" and practically giving them away, true or false? FACT: Jobs brought to Oklahoma, we were told 175 or so, when indeed, the Sonics now employ around 60 people in Seattle, and 18-20 of those are the players themselves, true or false? FACT: The return to the city from having the Sonics here will take 198 years to break even on the Ford, and 210 years on the practice facility, true or false? I'm using the city figures released on "profit" they "hope" to get from this, and from there doing the math is pretty simple. It's interesting to note that Mayor Mick has stated publicly that this was nothing more than a "break even " proposition for the city. FACT: I slam the education system in this state, and once again, Okie ranks 45th or 46th in the nation again, true or false? FACT: Oklahoma roads and bridges are some(and in the case of the bridges) the worst in the nation, true or false? Before you go talking about how the city just passed that 800 plus million bond issue for roads, it may interest the people of this city that nearly HALF of that 800 plus million is allocated for something OTHER than the roads, so the 800 million figure is a falsehood propagated by the city. FACT, I slam the health of this state and the status of health care, when indeed, Oklahoma City is ranked as one of America's fattest cities, and also rank #1 in heart attacks and #2 in strokes, true or false?..............................now, while it may not be appealing to you to be reminded of these issues, I hardly see where I am "denigrating" anyone or anything by stating the facts as they truly are, unless you want to lump in every commission, study group and news agency(including this newspaper) who researches and reports their findings, as denigrating....
Mardy...Confused by your short comment. Seattle is holding Bennett to the terms of the lease, specifically the length of the lease...15 years. My point was I found it ironic that OKC is pre-emptively warning Schultz that should he prevail that it still expects him to honor the lease and move to OKC. That argument augers well for Seattle which is making precisely the same point. Also your argument about Key Arena's capacity is moot. The bottom line is revenue from all sources. Ticket sales is actually a small portion of overall revenue. Local TV sponsorship in the 12th largest market vs the 45th is many times more significant. Ford may have more total seats but the money seats, the lower bowl is comparable. More cheap seats in the rafters are meaningless. Some arena someplace will always be the smallest...that argument is just tail chasing.
41 yrs-the last 5 or so have poorly managed with poor NBA economics have overshadowed 35 mostly great ones-all you people who insist on quoting the last few years of Seattle attendance are cherry picking. One or two years of hosting the Hornets is fine-but no true indicator of future events. BUYER BEWARE!!!DATER BEWARE!!!
Larry, so, it almost sounds like we'll be inheriting a Seattle problem? Our Arena is not that much bigger (19,675 seating capacity) than the KeyArena…however, it is more in line with the “norm” in the NBA. Sounds like Seattle is getting a raw deal, and OKC might be in the long run as well.
Rick, sorry about the year thing. I read your post, and mis-understood what you wrote. I realized too late that you were talking about in 04 that the Sonics wanted a new one...not that a new one was built in 04.
Mardy-what part of my post led you to believe that I stated that Key Arena was built in '04??? There is one typo on my part-It should read- "Seattle should HAVE bent over and grabbed the ankles." You obviously did not really read my posts-understandable-you want a team-I hope you get one-just not the Sonics.
Hi Mardy, to answer some of your points: 1. Not neccessarily, thus the fraud lawsuit. 2. The arena was built to the teams and NBA standards, they started complaining and wanting a new arena about just a few short years into the lease (same thing will happen here with the Ford (remember the Ford was built to NBA specifications too, was called state of the art etc by numerous entities (even the NBA), then after Bennett bought the Soincs and it was clear (to OKC leaders he wanted to move here) the Ford started to be called "adequate", for a building that was only 4 to 5 years old...starting to sound familiar? 3. That is what they claim, am sure the proof (or lack thereof) will come out in the trial 4. False, Seattle made at least 3 proposals to remodel the Key with new leases (where the team would get more revenue...all were turned down by the previous owners)...Seattle said publicly all previous offers were still on the table for the new owners. 5. False, a remodeled Key was n't an option..it was a new arena or nothing 6. Bennett et al did plenty of snubbing themselves...never giving a remodel consideration...only providing one real option, a brand new $300 to $500 million arena and a new lease or they leave.
For those people, like me, that don't have a clue about the facts in this deal but are tired of hearing different stories...I found a link that describes events in detail: http://fantasy.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=32&sessionstatus=notloggedin&mode=login . I did find out from another website that since the lease is not a real-estate lease, it can be broken if proven that there is a great loss of revenue on either party. Didn't answer one of my questions though...was the sale illegal? OKC will get a team…but I personally don’t want a team if the deal is dirty.
Rick, according to http://basketball.ballparks.com/NBA/SeattleSonics/index.htm the Key was renovated in 1994 and opened in 1995…not in 04’. In as such, the seating was improved, but still the capacity is only 17,072...one of the smallest in the league and the average attendance is on the bottom of the league... with the price per ticket as one of the cheapest. Are they not playing in the Key arena? If not, then I would agree; 04 is fairly new, and if the team got a new arena in 04 and it is only 08 now, then what is the complaint with a 4 year old arena? Seems to me the owners would have been involved in the new arena specs in 04, and so they only have themselves to blame for its shortcomings. BTW, how was the sale illegal? If the sale was approved by the NBA, I would think all of NBA’s lawyers would have been involved from the start until the deal was finalized…meaning, if there was a hint of wrong doing, the NBA would have nixed the deal to avoid lawsuits. AND, Chris, if the City of Seattle is not owning up to the lease agreement, then why should the owners honor it?
Mardy, as another person "on the outside looking in", I think that applies to about ALL the posters in this forum, I think you are at least partially correct. Yes, Seattle failed to cowtow to the NBA and billionares. Seattle should be bent over and grabbed the ankles in 2004-eight yrs after Key was built and just built another. Makes sense,should not every town do this?? If our team is the casualty-so be it.We won't back down however. Brian Robinson,our William Wallace, won't allow it. However, the judge who is looking at THE BENNETTS dealings may see fraud.
Hello all---I am just now reading all the posts in here to find out what the hoopla (couldn't resist) was all about. As someone from the outside looking in, this is what I see. 1. A rich man from Oklahoma (legally) purchased the only available NBA team. 2. The past owners of the team fought with the City of Seattle to get a better arena, and even the NBA themselves got involved and told the city the arena is not up to par within the league. Because of loosing millions of dollars, the previous owners sold a financial ticking time bomb. 3. The new owners spent millions in trying to stay in Seattle. 4. Seattle had the opportunity to keep the team by improving the arena, but chose to ignore the new owners and turn their backs on the fans in Seattle. 5. In the end, didn’t the NBA inform Seattle that if they want an NBA team, that all they need to do is improve the arena and they can keep the current team OR they will be first in line for a new team? 6. As I see it, the only BAD person here is the City of Seattle. As they have repeatedly snubbed their noses at the new owners (and held the lease as a hostage), and turned their backs on the good citizens of Seattle--that want and DESERVE an NBA team. Sounds like to me the focus should not be the OKC Mayor, the new owners, or the previous owners. The focus should be the city of Seattle…they have failed miserably, and they continue to not take responsibility for their actions (or lack of action).
Off the Sonics subject, I just want to extend my heartfelt condolences to all those in Oklahoma that have been affected by the recent tornadoes. When disasters happen like this, it puts into perspective the irrelevance of pro sports, and puts real life in the forefront. I have been fighting diligently for our Sonics to remain here in Seattle, but for the next couple of days I will turn my attention to the people of Oklahoma and the other states hit by severe weather and send out my prayers to you all. Please, everyone be safe and take care out there.
4R_SEATTLE_Sonics, SEATTLE - May 12, 2008 10:12 AM
Larry..I've noticed that while Jill spent time on the site last night, she didn't refute anything you or I stated except the issue of the vote on the day of the ice storm. Nothing addressing the 8.5% of voters turning out for the Ford vote. If the ice storm caused "low voter turnout" on the bond issue, what was the excuse for the Ford Center vote? It was too sunny that day? I would love to have an actual debate with somebody like Jill on here, but not when the majority of "yes" voters are gullible enough to believe everything the city tells them and how peachy they are led to believe all things are in this city. If all the facts were known before the vote, like the state giving away millions for tax breaks, and the naming rights being practically given away, and the lease agreements being "a break even" position, then I'm sure the vote would have been different, AND it would have received a far greater turnout at the polls. However, in true fashion, the facts were withheld and the picture was painted as a rosy (or, using the phrase used on here many many times, "win win") they got the desired results. It doesn't matter to the people who voted yes that the politicians flat out lied to them (where is that darned list of improvements this tax will allow to happen to the Ford anyway?) I guess the city just decided that stating it would be released soon and then not releasing it at all is OK...I wonder how the job search is going for the 4-5 people who will maintain the practice facility and have to split the allocated 20 thousand a year between them anyway?
Have to agree with Paul on this one, calling someone a "troll" sounds like a personal attack to me (much like the name calling that went on between Ted and Bug). It is amazing how quickly these threads resort to name calling when people run out of facts (some never had any facts to begin with). Especially true on any of the illegal immigration threads (the accusations of people being racist, bigots and KKK members are repeated often). The name calling by both sides (trolls, tree-huggers, rednecks, inbreds, trailer trash etc) doesn't serve any useful purpose (unless making oneself feel superior by tearing someone else down counts). It makes any argument you are trying to make less effective. Stick with the facts and the issues. I try very hard to refrain from doing the same thing (sometimes it isn't easy, I admit...there are times I would love to say something to the effect, the old Saturday Night Live quote "Jane, you ignorant s***"). If I have ever slipped, and I have been guilty of that, let me apologize right now. Better to say someone is mis-informed or ignorant of the facts than calling them the village idiot or a moron. That way it is their actions/opinions that are being attacked and not the person themselves. Know it may seem like a fine line but can make a huge difference.
Jill..thank you for your kind words about me, I see you've decided to make the attack personal as you cannot refute the facts I've posted for this city and anybody else in any city to see either... Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, I see by your post you are living up the nickname you've given yourself....
Also, considering the "ice storm vote", the Mayor could have declared some sort of emergency and rescheduled the vote (to encourage voter turnout, something every politician claims they want to do), he didn't. I was prepared to walk to my voting place as it is only a couple of blocks where I live (my truck was encased in ice and had no power due to the storm) fortunately was able to get into my truck and out of the apt complex parking lot and was able to stop by and vote on my way into work.
Mickey and Jill: I disagree, voting should be mandatory (but who/what you vote for is the choice). I agree in part that "I would much rather have 5% of the people vote and be informed than force everyone to vote and have 95% of the voters ignorant of the issue." Problem is that 95% still holds...most of the people who do show up to vote ARE "ignorant of the issue" (they probably only heard one side) and end up being mis-informed, instead of informed. We don't actually live in a democracy, but a constitutional, representative republic (with a few "democracy" elements). In a true democracy, every time something had to be decided, you would have to have an election. Obviously, this is impractical, so we elect people to represent us. Every once in a while decisions are left up to the populace (either the elected representatives don't/can't make the decision or by law, they may be required to do so). How can it be representative if people don't vote?
Jill wrote: "The people who chose not to have a voice have no right to complain, nor should anyone speak for them." but that is part of the problem Jill. This paper, City Leaders, the Chamber etc, try to mis-represent the vote as the City, collectively (INCLUDING all of those who didn't let their voice be heard) felt the same way as those who did vote.
Jill wrote: "but those who do nothing but denigrate this city without offering suggestions for change or who never say one positive thing don't deserve respect or kindness." Sorry but you are wrong on that one, unless they are making the "attack" personal, they deserve the same respect and kindness you expect...doesn't matter where their profile says they live.
Jill wrote: "Larry, the bond issue in December occurred the day of an ice storm. That's why there was low turnout." I am well aware of that, but the turnout wasn't that much lower than for the other bond issue or most single issue elections.
Brandon: Peace to you also. I agree with you and honestly don't understand those that can rationalize the "theft" of another city's team. They want it so bad, they don't seem to care what it cost or how they get it. Our Mayor said repeatedly he wanted to avoid the perception that we were stealing any other cities team (Hornets or Sonics). He claimed repeatedly the City was not "actively" talking to any franchise about relocation (but wasn't making it any secret that we were seeking an NBA team, unless he was talking about an expansion team, that means "stealing" another team). When Bennett purchased the Sonics and talked to the City (informally of course) the Mayor could have made it plain that he didn't want to have any part of taking another city's team but he didn't. Instead, several WEEKS after Bennett FORMALLY filed for relocation, the Mayor came up with the remodel scheme as a way to "lure" "an" NBA team (what other team would it be if not the Sonics since they had already filed for relocation?). When the Mayor made that public it was clear he was willing to be an accessory to the "theft". Those that voted for the tax increase also were accessories to the "theft". But please remember even though the vote passed by 62%, that number only reflects about 8.5% of the residents of OKC, so please do not blame the entire City for this. The blame here belongs with the Mayor, the City Council (who voted unanimously for it), the OKC Chamber of Commerce (who spearheaded the campaign of lies, spin and mis-information) and those who voted for it. How these people can live with themselves and sleep at night is beyond me. Is this part of the "community pride" they repeatedly spoke of? If the NBA is that important to them (and it doesn't seem to matter which team it is, just as long as there is one), why don't they move to a city that already has a team? But that's right, they may have to move again when a team relocates. All involved would be livid if the same was being done to them (another city was trying to "steal our team"). In fact the Mayor has said that the City is willing to take legal action to force "our" team to relocate here!
You know what is sad about this? The total misread by Stern and Bennett of Seattle's willingness to fight and not sellout like all other Cities do. If Bennett would have only been honest with the people around here he could have had everything. If he would have said, "We need to re figure the lease" he could have got it. If he would have said, "We will honour the lease, But, if their is not a new arena we will consider moving at the end." He would have probably got a new building. The least he would have gotten was a well supported team for 4 years and made a few dollars doing it. A new building would have brought about the 'Sweet Flip'. If he would have marketed the Sonics and allowed them grow everything would have been different. How much money would Bennett have saved if he would only have acted with honesty and with integrity? Instead he tried to act the tough guy and is getting slapped around, both professionally and monetarily. Neither he nor Stern recognized that this isn't our first Rodeo and that people around here do value integrity over attitude.
Surprisingly I agree with Jill on the voting issue. I would much rather have 5% of the people vote and be informed than force everyone to vote and have 95% of the voters ignorant of the issue. In BC voting is mandatory and most people just show up and yank the lever their Father's yanked instead of actually thinking about what they are doing.
Larry said, "Bobby, while I agree Paul can be "Mister Negativity" at times, please feel free to refute any of the facts he has posted. From what i have seen, he has been spot on (for the most part). I would disagree with your statement that "This city nor state has (n)ever needed your kind". Actually, we need a few more people that will "call out" our politicians and the like when the lie, spin and mis-represent (which is almost constant it seems). There has to be a balance between their "everything's perfect" dogma. There is room for everyone...even for those who disagree." I agree Larry,there is room for everyone, but those who do nothing but denigrate this city without offering suggestions for change or who never say one positive thing don't deserve respect or kindness. Most of us would agree this is not a perfect place. Perhaps some of us think our ideas are ways of helping the city improve, even if they run counter to yours. But people who clearly enjoy disparaging this city at every opportunity are simply trolls who have nothing constructive to offer. Paul is a troll. He just happens to live here, whereas most of the rest are from elsewhere. Anyone who's spent any time at all on message boards or websites recognizes this personality type pretty quickly.
Larry, the bond issue in December occurred the day of an ice storm. That's why there was low turnout. And, if people don't want to register to vote or show up to vote, that's their decision. We don't have mandatory voting in this city, because I believe voting is a choice. The people who care vote. The people who don't care don't. If you look at the people who cared one way or the other, two thirds of them wanted the Ford Center tax to pass. The people who chose not to have a voice have no right to complain, nor should anyone speak for them. If you want to change voter registration and turnout, that would be a noble community service, and far more effective than posting on message boards read by about a hundred people, half of whom are from Seattle.
Citizens of both States-Let's start a coalition-Link arms and force Stern's hand. A TEAM FOR BOTH CITIES!! It must be an organized intentional united effort.
Reading some of these comments, I should start off by saying " Dear Oklahoma City, I come in Peace. I am not here to talk about what is good or bad about either city. Both of our cities politicians and billionaires have been LYING to both sides. Niether side gives the whole story. All I want to say is that I am a die hard Seattle Supersonics fan. Some of my fondness memories growing up are associated with them. The Sonics potential move is a dagger in many hearts for many reasons than just losing a franchise. I guess the only way to describe it is,as rediculous as it may sound, somebody coming in purchasing the rights to the Sooners Football and felt there were better opportunities elsewhere. I use the Sooners as an example to express how empty you would feel, and cheated. Newspapers and private parties can do all the surveys they want to get the information they are looking for but I know and have witnessed since the early 70's the love, support, and committment the people of Seattle has always given. Every major sports team in Seattle have been handed new sporting palaces. The Sonics were first. Mariners second, and Seahawks last. Do not let the media turn this into a city versus city. When the Sooners are on tv I'll watch because of its damn good program and illustrated history. I just don't think I could ever watch the Sooners again if they suddenly moved and were now known as the Las Vegas Sooners. I think its going to be entertaining to watch lying billionaires sue each other in court and embarrass each other in public. This will be a classic.
Larry and Paul (and a few others) I think it is great
you are taking the time to study these issues in detail. I think it shows you care a great deal about
your city. Everyone should be as diligent ..
If OKC is worried about the money (tax) to renovate the Ford, why don't they just not place the extension on the tax when it's due to soon expire? That would make sense, save a lot of legal fees and time in the courts, and would resolve the "because we're doing it for our taxpayers" issue. As far as money losses by the city if they don't come to town..didn't Mayor Mick go on record as saying this NBA was going to be a "break even proposition"? If the city didn't(and doesn't) plan on making money off the team coming here, why would they expect to be awarded damages? I swear, the politico's in this town are beyond compare. There won't be any need for "discovery" of e-mails over this whole fiasco, OKC, the Mayor, this paper and a few dozen other news outlets have got so much, and so many conflicting statements coming from the city offices that OKC will be the biggest laughing stock in years in this country.....OKC would be foolish to push any issue except to die a quiet death in this and chalk it up to "we "thought" we wanted to be a big league city"....
Larry and Paul you made some good points. It is kinda of funny here we have a very large wooden dome in Tacoma and they tried to get big improvements on it because it had to compete with Seattle. This same thing seams to happen everywhere.
Yes, it is true, only about 50% of the residents in OKC are registered voters. If memory serves, typically voter turnout is in the 10% to 15% range (especially for single issue ballots). Even though the politicians will always say they want high voter turnout, in reality they don't. We have elections here every time you turn around. They could increase turnout and save a lot of money (costs about $100 thousand each time the city opens the polls, for a city, county, state or national vote). They claim the reason why they hold so many single issue elections is so the voters....wait for it... don't get confused. Reality is they want only the people who are on their side to show up. Late last year we had two elections just weeks apart. Combined the two bond issues were for a total of over a BILLION $$$. One was for a school bond issue (paying for the very same things we are currently still paying a penny sales tax for--MAPS for Kids) and the other bond issue was a "general" one, paying for streets, parks etc (some of the very same parks that were supposedly built with a previous bond issue--if this bond issue passed, those parks would ALMOST be complete!!). But since they tied both elections into MAPS (they did the same thing with the Ford tax), it passed. Both elections had very low turnout...for the school one the yes vote was pretty close to the number of school employees and their spouses...for the City one, equal to the number of City employees and their spouses.
Here's another good example of the hypocrisy: In this article, it's stated that damages will be "substantial" in the event Clay Clay can't hold up his end of the bargain he struck with the city prematurely. The big reason? Because of the 120 million or so from renovating the Ford Center. Now, here's where it gets interesting. Before the vote, it was yukked up in numerous articles and blogs that the Ford needed these improvements anyway, IF they were going to compete with Tulsa for hosting the big 12, bigger concert venues, etc and improved showing at the Ford. but now, they're trying to leverage Seattle into thinking they're going to sue for damages they argued just weren't needed for the NBA? I'll bet off the record, the judges and attorneys who have seen this letter from OKC are rolling in the aisles. I'm not an attorney and I could pick this one apart so badly in a court of law that OKC would put up a fence around it's perimeter and never show their faces again...
According to what I've read. Yes, only 50% are registered voters. Just imagine, only about half the people that voted on the NBA issue vote on things that really make a difference here, like who's going to be elected to office and decide the course this city and state will take over the duration of their terms. Whats really sad about the whole situation is that almost everyone here (for the most part, and the stats speak for themselves) chooses to live their lives not caring one way or the other. I know a lot of people speak out against me here, but I state fact and in some way, I think this speaking out is what bothers them. Seems like they'd rather just do nothing rather than effect change in this state. Here's a classic example....>>But it was on the us
249
In an amended complaint filed in federal court, Schultz's attorneys argued that Bennett's Oklahoma City-based partnership breached its contract with Schultz by failing to use "good faith best efforts" for a full 12 months to get an arena deal in the Seattle area.
That requirement was set out in the purchase and sale agreement when Bennett's group bought the Sonics and Storm in 2006 for $350 million.
Instead of proposing a reasonable arena plan, Schultz's latest filing claims Bennett pushed a $500 million Renton arena that would have required "unprecedented amounts in public subsidies" with lease terms Bennett "knew would be unacceptable" to state lawmakers.
In the Washington State RCW's this is the "negligent misrepresentation" and "fraudulent inducement"
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Even though the title might indicate they were trying to spin the election as passing with "flying colors, the editorial didn't do that (barely based with 53% of the vote...roughly 3% of the County population).
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"Tuesday was the fourth election in seven months that involved an INCREASE in either the property tax or the sales tax."
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FINALLY, they admit the the bond issues and Ford tax were tax INCREASES (instead of an "extension" or "it won't raise taxes")...it's about time! Thank You!!
Take a look Jill I think Wa is rated A- and Ok is a C+
City Innovation Rank #1
Air Quality #3
Energy and Climate #1
Local Food and Agriculture #5
Green Economy #3
Knowledge Base #1
Green (LEED) Building #3
another interesting web site ..
http://www.sustainlane.com/us-city-rankings/
... interesting web site to browse
http://newsok.com/state-monthly-revenue-again-misses-estimate/article/3242859/?tm=1210694644
http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm
More to follow.....
One of Denvers big problems is it's elevation, and they are "smoggier" but OKC isn't far behind....thought you might like to know....
you are taking the time to study these issues in detail. I think it shows you care a great deal about
your city. Everyone should be as diligent ..